(06-02-2024, 01:46 PM)Fab Wrote: for now there hasn't been any counterpoints so far.

That's because the people who would be providing counterpoints are actually taking the time to come up with their own conclusions, rather than making baseless assumptions.

You made this post a few hours after patch dropped.

(06-02-2024, 06:23 PM)Levenna Wrote:

(06-02-2024, 01:46 PM)Fab Wrote: for now there hasn't been any counterpoints so far.

Okay, very well, I'll answer your question with a question. Why is being able to sit behind, for example, a gunboat, and click it away with 4 storm cannons without any further depth or interactivity than that a good and healthy balance state?

To play devil's advocate, the main change in 5.1 is that Gunboats now thrust very slightly faster on average than Cruisers, rather than very slightly slower. I could easily argue that the gun split is not needed to fix this matchup.

The split primarily just adds an extra bit of decision-making and depth. Your best turrets function when you're exposing your weaker side, and their limited range makes it so that max-range kiting requires your to use your frontal heavies, which cannot fire straight backwards. Both of these things together make a lot of different matchups about a lot more than "point ship at/away from enemy ship, right click". Obviously small-scale brawls against snubs, gunboats and cruisers are the most affected. I'd also note that "snubs, gunboats and cruisers" are the majority of combat classes in the game.

But all in all, I am not at all opposed to feedback and threads like these are fine. I was thinking of setting some up a week or so after the patch to see how people feel about the various things 5.1 changes, which classes feel strong, which feel weak, etc. The issue with this thread is that it hasn't actually been a weak and it was instead made based on virtually zero play-time on the new patch. I don't know what valuable feedback I could glean from "In dislike this change in theory".

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Is there any particular reason why, BC main weapons.. you know that big bad weapon which your strategy revolves around, facing backwards?

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(06-02-2024, 07:45 PM)Australopithecus Wrote: Is there any particular reason why, BC main weapons.. you know that big bad weapon which your strategy revolves around, facing backwards?

Because, duh, some developer thought the MAIN Battlecruiser weapon should be made usable backwards only.

I wonder if they were trolling or just joking but all the other devs surprisingly approved it as an intriguing idea.

(06-01-2024, 08:48 PM)Haste Wrote: But yeah. An opinion based on more than 15 seconds of playtime would be appreciated.

I have one gunso fight in conn, but that lasted about 10 minutes, so I'd say I'm qualified.

My main gripe so far is just some of the design choices.
Solaris Gatlings are heavies, when they're objectively the epitome of a defensive weapon.
Pulses now require you to basically core dump to take out someone's shield, and god forbid if you miss a shot or two, meaning you have no core while the enemy wails on you.
And finally, forward guns are still absolute dogscuff to use, and it's clear that the fwg was taken into account on ships that have them, because they don't have forward heavies.

Honestly, I'm still of a mind that the first rework was terrible, and a second one hasn't really changed that. It's kind of just shifted the problems around.

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we should start a petition or something. ?

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Hello, playtester for both new (old [new]) gunboats and cruisers here!

While I found the transition from previous cruiser weapons to the new loadouts extremely jarring, I also find that the alterations to loadouts that were typical in previous versions are highly beneficial for increasing the variety of playstyles in both group fights as well as duels. Additionally, the creation and alteration of slot-specific weapons permits a lighter cruiser to play around their maneuverability while mitigating the previously-extant issue of "heavy cruiser sit behind and shoot bigly".

Perhaps you should consider actually using the weapons and learning?

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(06-02-2024, 08:08 PM)Schxer Wrote:

(06-02-2024, 07:45 PM)Australopithecus Wrote: Is there any particular reason why, BC main weapons.. you know that big bad weapon which your strategy revolves around, facing backwards?

Because, duh, some developer thought the MAIN Battlecruiser weapon should be made usable backwards only.

I wonder if they were trolling or just joking but all the other devs surprisingly approved it as an intriguing idea.

Ideally you'd like your strongest gun to protect your weakest spot (engines), and technically the Battlecruiser weapon isn't backwards only rather it doesn't shoot forward (still shoots sideways just fine). Battlecruisers have enough front firepower as is, with it you have a balanced front and back/side firepower.

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I really wish we recorded the early Battlecruiser fights me and Haste had when the BC heavy pointed forward to show people proof of how utterly, unapologetically terrible the gameplay was back then. If the heavy points forwards, then the best play is to drive straight at the enemy, and shoot your gun. That's all. You do nothing else with the rest of your guns. You don't broadside, you don't kite, you just joust until someone dies. There's no gameplay involved, at all. It was the same for Gunboats too before the mine was introduced, for the record. You just drove at the enemy with your forward gun and held down right click. Riveting gameplay.

Cruisers, before the rework, suffered from the age-old issue of "more armor ship more winner" because whoever had the bigger numbers just won, similar to old Gunboats. Cruisers *after* the rework suffered from "You made one mistake, I got behind you, I have won the fight", because their heavies pointed forwards so the best strategy was to drive forward and hold right click with said heavies. Notice a trend?

We are well aware that Battlecruisers and Cruisers look very silly with their biggest guns pointed straight backwards, but without this theres next to no depth to them at all. It just devolves into mindless right clicking until someone loses.

(06-02-2024, 09:06 PM)Jayce Wrote: .... variety of playstyles in both group fights as well as duels. ...

you mean, kite and broadside. that's the play, great.
dude, dude, wait for someone to chase you, strafe, maybe box, maybe roll a bit and let some other member of the team harass. that's your gameplay.

brother, i've seen and participated in the evolution... of some of those gameplay features.

https://freeimage.host/i/screen109.JmnEVAx

shout out to LSF guys.

check this out (loadout compared to new one) .. they surely have the same weapon, similar speed/range. where did it go wrong.

note : osiris used to be the boxing/strafe champ. you get full zoner primaries, went backwards at some -80'ish km (later patched)

and strafe meta. it was the new weapon cerberus, new feature turret view and steer. so your good friend AI cruiser and Zoner cruiser Corvo was near unbeatable.
and you could fire at least half of these weapons in any direction.

what am saying is; you can kite in a Praefect. you can face an opponent head on in a Praefect. but why would you do the latter if the situation is disadvantegous. that's up to the player.

i argue that, these changes actually reduce the normal head on engagement situation.

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